To “Jane,” Who Doesn’t Want to Be Called “Baby Thief”

Dear “Jane:

I’d like to start this by saying I understand your feelings are hurt. I imagine that encountering the online family preservation community was like a slap in the face.

I’m pretty sure that’s because you’ve been told all your life what a blessed and booful and beneficent thing adoption is…for people like you. And I doubt you’ve questioned that very much. I’m writing this to tell you it is time to start questioning that, if only for your future adoptee’s sake, because your future adoptee will be the product of pain and loss.

I know you want your own child, and I know it will seem very cruel to you when I ask you to perform the following thought experiment:

1) Think about what it would be like to bear your own child out of your own body, to have what you so long for.
2) Ask yourself: Who would willingly let go of that precious child? Who would willingly give it away?

The answer is and always has been “almost nobody.” The only reason most “birth mothers” win that title is that they felt they had no other choice. What you stand to benefit from, what you hope and pray for, what you literally describe yourself as entitled to is someone else’s unthinkable tragedy.

I’m not even going to talk much about what adoption is for the adoptee here, because there’s only so long a blog post can be. Just think about the woman you expect to willingly hand over her child to you (and then, as you say, “be respectful” of you…should you stoop to an open adoption…if you must).

I asked you to imagine that because you describe first mothers’ regret over losing their children as “blame-shifting.” You really seem to believe that if a woman relinquishes a child, it’s because she had a free and uncoerced choice to do so. We live in a society where women earn less than men and our reproductive choices are constantly challenged; yet when a woman gives up her own flesh and blood, you seem to think she is a free agent.

You are “blame shifting.” You are blaming women for the very misfortune you expect to benefit from.

If, as you say, you believe adoption can be about “finding homes for children,” then you should seek out an existing child who needs a home. Do not write “Dear Birthmother” letters to pregnant women, do not rent billboards with messages aimed at pregnant women, do not put ads aimed at pregnant women in the Penny Saver, do not pay a pregnant woman’s medical expenses, do not start a website telling pregnant women what you can give their babies.

If taking in a child who really needs a home is so unacceptable to you because it might be temporary (or for any other reason), then don’t pretend you want to give a home to a child who needs one.

I believe you when you say infertility hurts, but these days there are simply not enough desperate women lacking reproductive choices out there to supply every couple who wants one with a child. Again, that is literally what you are complaining about:  a shortfall of desperate women without reproductive choices. And you have the gall to claim such women have the advantage over you:

A person who is coming to adoption from a place of infertility is NOT in a position of power over anyone.

An infertile person is not in a position of privilege, no matter what these other groups might like to believe.

Infertility does not negate privilege. If you are well-off enough to consider adoption, you ARE in a position of privilege relative to the child’s first mother. How else could you adopt?

You live in a Western democracy. You are almost certainly white. You can realistically consider adopting. That means you either have access to a great deal of money or to the ability to borrow or otherwise obtain that money. I understand it may not feel that way, but you are incredibly privileged. To say you lack privilege because you’re infertile on a planet where women’s fertility has always been an instrument of our oppression is untrue and offensive.

[Critics] also place a moral judgement on a couple’s only alternative to parenthood and make adoption seem like it’s only being done to satisfy [APs’] selfish needs.

“Jane,” that is where you lost the last scrap of my sympathy . “Alternative to parenthood”? I was not my adoptive parents’ alternative to parenthood; I was their route to parenthood. They were and are (two of) my (four) parents. When you phrase it this way, you’re saying adoptive parenthood is not parenthood, and that is no attitude with which to raise an adopted child. While parenting adopted children is different from parenting biological children, it is certainly parenting. If you don’t think it is, you need to do some of those things the mean family preservation people might have told you to do, like get a pet, because what’s the diff? Pretending is pretending, isn’t it?

Why should my desire to become a parent [don’t you mean become an alternative to a parent?] be seen any differently [than the desire of fertile people]?

Because your desire literally depends on someone else’s loss, that’s why. I know I keep saying that. I’m saying it again because it is the point you keep missing and missing and missing.

As an infertile couple, we have the same right as anyone else to adopt and build a family.

That is true: You have the same a right to another woman’s baby or child that anyone else has, which is no right at all.

Know what might make infertility hurt a little bit less? Letting go of the (insane) idea that somewhere out there is a woman who is hatching a very special baby intended just for you. Because as long as you believe in her, you can believe in your entitlement to her offspring and her (also insane) desire to freely give them to you. And the more deprived you feel of what’s hers, the more you hurt.

The family you feel entitled to build is not rightfully yours. That (insane) idea is bullshit, and it always was bullshit. It seemed saner in the past because women had fewer rights and choices then. Adoption is an act that, were women accorded full human rights, would be so rare that the word would lose its current meaning. And while I suspect infertility hurts more than I can imagine, I think all the women who did not and do not want to relinquish their children are more important than that pain. And I think it’s many decades past time to kill the idea that anyone is literally entitled to a child if s/he can find a family tragedy to benefit from (and plunk down the bucks).

PS: I also think it’s over the top and unconstructive to call people who are not, for example, the Capobiancos “baby thieves,” but that’s beside the point.

 

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81 Comments

Filed under General Ignoramitude, Misognyny, Those Wacky PAPs

81 responses to “To “Jane,” Who Doesn’t Want to Be Called “Baby Thief”

  1. Frank Ligtvoet

    Jane could have been easily gay John. The same brutal entitlement governs the feelings and thoughts of many gay parents. It takes a while before people (like me), against the propaganda of the adoption industry, really understand that.

  2. And she’ll probably get the baby she wants too.

  3. Sunny

    Families are not “built.” They’re organic. And if they must be built, they ought not be constructed on the very wobbly foundation of emotional wrecks such as this woman, who is clearly in pain. She seems unwilling to do the work of accepting her grief, and instead wants to rush the process of filling her life with another woman’s child–on her own terms, of course.

    I used to think that if these potential adopters just did more research, they’d not adopt, or at least be a more compassionate parent. Apparently not. This one actually seems to be cognizant of our issues, even employing our verbiage! She only cares about herself.

    • I do not like the phrase “build a family”. It feels disconnected from reality, whether its used in a discussion about biological children or adoption, it just sounds silly to me. I do think there are people who will change some of their perceptions about adoption – if they are willing to read a variety of topics. Blogs like this one have really helped me sort out my erroneous ideas of adoption. I don’t know why more people don’t look at all sides. Perhaps it comes back to that grief. They are NOT dealing with it. Its evident in what they say and how they say it. They are living in their grief and making decisions from that place.

    • We did more research and are working through our grief and decided not to adopt. But that doesn’t make us better people than those who do adopt or the model to go by. It’s just us and what we did.

      I can say this though we could have just as easily rushed into adopting. The amount of emotions that infertility brings a couple is so powerful that it’s so easy for a couple to jump into infertility. It brings the worst out in a person and will tap into all of the insecurities and doubt a person has had about themselves in the past. It did for me with deep depression and passive aggressive suicidal thoughts.

      • We have talked about adopting from foster care. We’re taking things very slowly though. I have considered working as a CASA volunteer first.

      • That’s cool. I’m a Big Brother volunteer and my wife volunteers for a local School Board. No it’s not the same as parenting and it doesn’t fill the void. For me it would be completely unfair to ask my little to do that and he deserves better.

        I’ve accepted that nothing will fill the void and doing so just makes me miserable. I’m still working through it all to figure out what exactly my purpose is cause right now I don’t feel like I have one.

        Best wishes to you and your husband.

    • “On her own terms” is what really got to me–the notion that the woman who might make her dreams come true owes her respect. That is not grief talking, it’s entitlement.

      • Grief from infertility can bring out the worst in a person. Entitlement is one of those things. I’m not saying she should get a pass but rather that she needs work through these emotions regardless of whether she adopts.

    • Lesley Pearse

      She won’t be happy anyway…. She did not give birth. Any child is a genetic stranger, a strange egg in the nest.
      Get a grip on what life has to offer, not what you can buy/steal.

  4. Mary

    *applauds* Very well done!

  5. It is so easy to hate adoptive parents. Which sucks, because I am one. But, I’m also an adoptee, and it’s so easy to hate adoptive parents.

  6. You know what? I know some infertile people who have worked through their grief, and decided to accept it. They are incredible aunties and uncles.

    • I don’t think we are truly encouraged to work though it. We’re told to seek out fertility treatments, and if that didn’t work, to go adopt.

      • I’m not surprised. A lot of people still seem to see adoption as a cure for infertility. The phrase “You can always just adopt” needs to go away (about forty years ago).

    • That’s still not the same and doesn’t take away the pain pretending to be a “great” Aunt or Uncle.

      • Lesley

        Thank you to those that understand the trauma involved in adoption. As a Mother of Loss during the Baby Scoop Era late 50’s until mid 70’s where our babies were ABDUCTED at birth to be sold to strangers, .. Thousands and thousands of us in Australia alone….there is no getting over the grief. A full count of Judges 1959 brought down a ruling that adoption should only, ever be a last resort. However, the medical took it upon themselves to “fix” the grief of infertility, using young unmarried mothers as surrogates.
        This has created generations of dysfunctional children/adults.
        Adoption and surrogacy MUST stop.

      • I’m so sorry for your loss. I’m very aware of the pain on your side though I can never understand it just as you could never understand mine.

        A lot of what is driving this are the ideas that if you’re unable to have children you can just adopt and that people who lack children are less than. If we better supported those going through infertility and valued those without children it would help the demand in adoption and third party reproduction.

  7. Margaret

    This is one of the most awesome posts this adopted person has ever read – thank you and more more more.

  8. Heather

    I love you so much.

  9. This is something that hits me hard because at one time I was in the place that Jane is. Ultimately we decided not to pursue adoption but that’s just us. The advice I would give to Jane is that she needs to work through her infertility grief before she decides to pursue adopting. There is no timetable on working through it. For me I’ve been working on it for over three years and I still have work to do. It’s so hard when the world is passing you by when you feel less than because of your body and just want to move on from the pain. Nothing will ever take away that pain. Adopting a child won’t. Being a “Great” Aunt or Uncle won’t. Mentoring won’t take away that pain either. At the end of the day our bodies will have failed us no matter what.

    If after working through her infertility grief her and her husband decide to pursue adopting they will have to accept the risk no matter what type of adoption they pursue that the adoption could be unethical. They need to accept the chance that the child will struggle with being adopted and/or there could be tension with the child’s biological family. Every case is different and just because some adoptees and parents have snapped at you doesn’t mean the child you adopt or their parents will react that way toward you. You need to understand that while you come from a place of loss and hurt so do they and it has nothing to do with you. It took me a while to recognize this.

    The last piece of advice I would give her is to be honest why she is pursuing adopting. There is no shame in admitting the reason is she wants to become a parent. It’s better to be honest than hide behind the idea that you want to provide a child a home. There will be a day when the child she adopts may ask the question and it’s better to be honest than lie.

    On the topic of “right to a child” it’s bothersome when opponents of it come from people who have children. Sure no one has a right to raise another person but when you live in a childfilled society that devalues those who lack children then it encourages people to believe they have a right to a child. Until our society starts respecting and valuing the lives of those who are childless nothing will change on this end. Just as Adoptive Parents need to listen to Adoptees and Birth Parents people who haven’t gone through infertility and/or childless because of infertility need to listen to those who have rather than dismiss them. I’ve found that those in the Adoption Community who feel dismissed by outsiders are the same people who dismiss those going through infertility and are childless because of infertility.

  10. I was headed as the gift for a family on Christmas Eve no less. I was 8 months…they had already adopted a boy, and wanted a girl to round out their family…So they changed my name and welcomed me into their family. I on the other hand had had it (4th placement)… no one asked the 8 month old. I refused …And went into Failure to Thrive…This adoption was then terminated at the 6 month mark and this family realized that they couldn’t /wouldn’t /shouldn’t as they could not handle a baby with such strong will. (that iron core came to me from my mother;-)…I offer this story here to show that the woman to whom this letter is written may well get a baby…but there is an equal chance that Karma will insert it’s self and she will discover what she thought and believed was wrong. Yes this impacts the infant and until the system is changed we can’t do much about it other than writing this type of letter. And this is a mighty powerful letter. Thank you

  11. Renee

    “And I think it’s many decades past time to kill the idea that anyone is literally entitled to a child if s/he can find a family tragedy to benefit from (and plunk down the bucks).”

    SING IT, SISTER.

  12. Infertility is God’s gift. Some of do not worship fetuses or baybees. We abhor both.

    • Can you clarify what you mean by infertility being god’s gift?

      • You’re free. You don’t have worry about getting pregnant and spawning a sprog. You couldnl’t pay us childree by choice
        people to spawn ad destroy our bodies, minds, and back accounts. Why aren’t these fetuses being aborted? Why are they being put on the market (or kept for thaht matter)? Why do women and men make slaves of themselves?

      • There’s a big difference between making the choice not to have children and not having the ability to make that choice. It wasn’t because your body failed you.

    • Seriously?

      Yeah, that’s a healthy attitude. NOT.

    • Seriously?

      Yeah, that’s a healthy attitude. NOT.
      When I wrote this it was meant for this maddog person whose comment I find ridiculous. How does hating babies, especially adoptee babies help anything? Or adoptee rights? Just sick.

      • Who says this is about hating adoptee babies? I’m adopted. I dislike all children and the people who breed them. What a waste of a life unless you consider slavery a positive.

    • I’ve had two kids and never worshiped either of them. I am rather *not* fond of other people’s children. I love mine, however. Love, not worship. There is a difference.

      Don’t have kids if you don’t want them, by all means, but hating someone for who they are instead of what they’ve done is sick. I don’t care what you think your reasoning is. Get help. (As long as it’s help that won’t try to talk you into procreating. BY ALL MEANS do not have kids if you view that as nothing but a net negative.)

  13. Seriously?

    How the F can you say the Capobianco’s are NOT baby thieves? They are two of the evilest adoptive parents on earth. Didn’t you see what they did to Dusten Brown and his daughter Veronica? What the hell is wrong with you?

    • Please read it again. I said that it’s probably not constructive to call someone a baby thief unless they ARE as bad as the Capobiancos. Saying they’re not thieves would go against everything I’ve ever posted on this blog.

      • Seriously?

        Adoptosnark, this is what you wrote:
        PS: I also think it’s over the top and unconstructive to call people who are not, for example, the Capobiancos “baby thieves,” but that’s beside the point.
        I guess because you said to “call people who are not”, (emphazing not) it comes off like you are saying the Crapos aren’t baby thieves, but thank goodness you replied to me to straighten that out because I got really scared for a minute. Perhaps you should reword that P.S.? I was with you during this whole post but then I thought maybe you were sipping the Kool-Aid when you wrote the last line. I’m glad I was wrong because there are too many brainwashed adoptees out there to begin with. And man, fuck Jane btw. I hope she gets in a car crash before she could ever adopt!
        I read what she wrote and it made me want to lose my cookies. I am glad you exposed her, the selfish bitch.

    • Her P.S. was fine. You need to learn how to read.

  14. Lesley Pearse

    Adoption is a business. A business needs products for sale, and WILL obtain them. While there is a demand, a supply must be found. Preying on the most vulnerable in society most certainly makes them thieving mongrels.
    I was told in 1974 that I was unfit to be a Mother, so I not only lost my son, who was abducted at birth… I lost any future children I may have had.
    Stop adoption. Stop surrogacy.
    The pain of your infertility is nothing compared to the pain of a Mother of Loss OR the baby who is removed from the source of his/her very survival…. That source is the MOTHER.

    • And stop pedicentricty–the idea that you’re not “complete” without a sprog or two.

    • I don’t think it gets us anywhere to get into the pain Olympics of comparing who had a tougher loss. What we can do is recognize each other’s losses and respect one another.

      • Lesley Pearse

        Hey. I’m fine with respecting any infertile woman, just so long as she leaves other women’s babies alone..no problem.
        It’s not a competition anyhow. Just the plain, honest truth.

      • When you put it the way you have you are making it a competition.

      • Heather

        The pain you may feel from the loss of your “potiential” son is nothing compared to the loss I feel of my son from my life. An infertile couple felt their entitlement to my son meant more than their word. He and I must live with that for the rest of our lives. You have no idea what that is like.

        You have lost an idea, a hope or a plan you had. I have lost my flesh and blood and he has lost his connection to his genetics and his history all due to the selfish desires of another “in pain” like yours.

      • You’re right I have no idea what it’s like to experience your loss. And I’m sorry you had to go through that and continue to experience pain from it.

        But you have no idea what it’s like to have your body fail you in being able to have a child with someone you love. You have no idea what it’s like to feel like less of a person because of it. To be told you aren’t as valuable to society because of this disability. To be told you don’t know what love is until you’ve been a parent. To feel like you have no purpose.

        I’m someone who is infertile but my wife and I won’t be adopting in anyway. We had nothing to do with your loss. There are many infertile couples that had nothing to do with your loss. Just as you and mothers who experienced losses like yours have nothing to do with my loss. But I think we should have the ability to respect each other’s losses support one another rather than get into the pain Olympics. We don’t have to be enemies.

      • Seriously?

        That is impossible when they have all the power and truly have no respect for us anyway.

      • Who is the “they” you are referring to PAPs or those who are infertile?

  15. just call me oscar(ette)

    gsmwco2, Just what do you mean by, “On the topic of “right to a child”, it’s bothersome when opponents of it come from people who have children.” What???? So as long as somebody has children or even A child they should be more than happy to shut-up and share the rest? Or They don’t know what it’s like? They don’t understand? They have no right? Whoa there! That totally smacks of entitlement. Maybe it’s bothers their moral fiber for other’s to think that they should be entitled to, deserve, have a right to somebody else’s child…maybe even one of theirs. HELLO.

    You lose a child to adoption, you are told (whether point blank or by the act of adoption loss) you are not worthy of being a woman, not worthy of being a mother, not worthy of being considered as a human being. You end up (which very many of us did) with secondary infertility and NEVER have another child. Yeah, I think some of us get what childlessness does and is. Do those of you, who have not had a child due to infertility or those with secondary infertility AFTER having a child and being allowed to nurture and raise your own child and are ‘wanting to adopt’, understand how it could possibly add exponentially to the grief, to lose your firstborn child to those who we were all told and convinced were better than, worth more than, mattered, and WE didn’t. They are a ‘real’ family, a better family, better people. And, in the course of years that pass, we are continually told in many, many ways that WE have no worth, no value as Mother. We of the closed era and even many now who’s open adoptions become closed, are told we can’t have even a scrap of information, not a dash or a dot. Not one iota of information on the welfare or even the continued existence of our children. We are not even worth allowing non-identifying information to. NOTHING. Zero, Nada, Zip. You want to talk about feeling ‘less than’. If you can’t wrap your thinking around that, ask yourself if it’s because you don’t want to go there. Ask yourself how you might possibly feel. Please don’t sugar coat it. We don’t. We aren’t allowed to. It’s called reality.

    If it’s not a pissing contest as far as ‘pain’ goes then explain to me why the pain of infertility is given higher rank or priority, understanding and compassion and laws to back it up, (i.e. closed records) than childlessness due to adoption loss.

    It’s true. It should not be a pain contest. Childlessness does hurt many of us. Loss of a child hurts, from many different ways, death, divorce, adoption, infertility, abduction, war, accidents and all the other horrible ways families have lost their precious children. Pets aren’t at all what children are to someone who wants to be a mother, is a mother, but a lot of us have had to ‘make do’ with cuddling our pets instead. Yeah, it’s hard, but it’s better than spreading the heartache around.

  16. Losing your entire family at 5 days old hurts too. There is no use talking to gsmwc02. His name is Greg, ad he haunts adoptee sites.

    He needs help, and is trying to get it in all the wrong places.

    • How do you know where I’m looking for help or where I’m getting help? All I’m looking to do is explain things you and others refuse to consider such as how society views and treats those unable to have children.

      The author of this site gets it but she is the exception not the norm.

      • I’m not sure what it is I “get” unless it’s the idea that wanting a child and not being able to have one is hurtful. I think everyone else here gets that too.

        Since I did not experience it, and my APs never mentioned experiencing it, I don’t know anything about societal pressure to reproduce. I accept that it exists, but I do not consider myself particularly enlightened on the topic. It’s not the subject of my blog and is not something I spend a lot of time thinking about.

      • Not everyone gets that infertility hurts just take a look at some of the comments here specifically Heather and Lesley. I appreciate that you are able to have a dialogue about it and allow me to comment.

      • There are some great childfree sites out there. Why don’t you go there? You are not really interested in
        adoption, adoptees or natural parents. I don’t know why you keep posting on all these sites. http://thechildfreelife.com/forum/

      • I’m not Childfree. It wasn’t a choice to not have children. Not being able to have children and choosing not to have children are two different things.

    • Heather

      I thought he sounded familar. It is too bad he hasn’t forgotten or moved on after all these years (isn’t that what we are told to do?)

      • I know it’s not your choice. It wasn’t my choice to be adopted, but I join adoptee sites. I’m sure it’s no ones choice to have an incurable disease, but there are support sites for them too. life is not fair. All of us here know that all too well.

  17. My point on the “right to a child” is that first they don’t know what it’s like to not be able to have a child and second it’s easy to tell someone they don’t have a right to something you are able to have. Would you tell someone who is blind that they don’t have the right to see? I don’t think you would. Now you’ll counter with they don’t have the right to steal someone else’s eyes which I agree with you on but that’s not what I’m saying here. What I’m saying is that it’s easy to say something when you didn’t have to walk in their shoes. The same applies in your situation with those who judge you.

    I’m not going to sugarcoat how you feel at all. How you feel makes complete sense to me. If I were you I definitely could see myself feeling less than. It was wrong with what happened to you and others and nothing can ever take away that pain. Even if mothers like you went on to have other children it doesn’t replace the ones you’ve lost.

    In no way do I believe that my pain or anyone else going through infertility should be given higher rank or priority over anyone else’s loss. I believe everyone deserves empathy and support when suffering a loss.

    I hope that rather than looking to win the Pain Olympics we open up our minds and listen to each other.

    • You are being listened to. But I’ll admit I do not understand what you want to accomplish by commenting here. Why should people who have been adversely affected by adoption form/find community with you? Especially given that you opted not to adopt (which I do appreciate), what have your issues actually got to do with ours? Why should your emotions be given equal consideration to the emotions of those harmed by adoption, especially in a conversation about adoption and the harms it does?

      I mean, do surrogate mothers have to consider your emotions as important as theirs are? Do donor conceived children have to? How about biological parents? Adoptive parents? Egg donors? Fertility doctors? Children in general? Users of birth control? To me, asking that of them makes as much sense as asking it of us.

      I repeat: I genuinely don’t understand what you expect to get out of this. If everyone on this comment thread were to say “Yes, your pain weighs exactly as much as ours,” what would that accomplish for you? What would it change?

      • What I’m hoping to accomplish is that by understanding what Jane is going through that maybe this group can help her and by help her I’m talking about support not hand her a child. If we are better able to support people like Jane you will prevent loss in adoption.

        We don’t have to be enemies we can help one another.

      • 1) Nobody in this comment thread, as far as I can tell, has denied that you or any other infertile person suffers for being infertile.

        2) When you insist we owe Jane and people like her support lest she adopt, you skate dangerously close to…I don’t even know what to call it…emotional extortion, maybe? (“Nice kids some of you got there. Be a shame if anyone were to adopt them.”) (“If you ladies would just have sex with everyone who comes on to you, nobody would have to rape you.”)

        It does suck that society gives infertile people a tough time. I think your interests would be better served by finding/building community with other people suffering that tough time rather than expecting to be allowed to monopolize discussions that ARE NOT ABOUT THAT SUFFERING.

        The fact that infertile people and people harmed by adoption are not necessarily enemies does not make us allies. We owe you/Jane/other infertile people nothing.

    • I went through five years of infertility, then had a miscarriage, then gave my “rainbow baby” up for adoption. The pain from infertility is nothing compared to adoption loss. Believe me I know. I even had two years of infertility after my loss son where I had to do a fertility treatment to get pregnant. It was worse the second time around with infertility because I was positive I was being punished for giving my son up but it was still nothing compared to actually giving my son up and what that is every single day. Pain Olympics? Natural mothers win every time. Sorry that you can’t understand the difference between actually losing a living breathing child and losing the hope of a child.

  18. Pingback: Is Infant Adoption a Right? |

  19. Lesley Pearse

    Please take the time to listen (utube) Mia Dyson singing a song she wrote called Jesse. This is my story.
    And then “Jane, who intends to be a baby thief)…. Come back to me and we will continue ….!

  20. Lesley Pearse

    Gsmwco2. Will you just get over yourself with this pain Olympics crap..!
    As far as I have been able to see in your comments, you are still pushing yourself to the forefront in your own personal situation. However, you have not lost something you never had in the first place. If you cannot contribute to the wellbeing of other children without being reminded of what you haven’t personally got, then I suggest you just stay at home and stare at your navel.

    • Heather

      Well said Lesley.

      Greg is not interested in intelligent discussion towards change, he wants pity, empathy, and if you could throw in a healthy womb wet infant or two … that would be great.

      Greg, the only way you can make yourself whole is through our loss. We know what you want.

      • You’re wrong. I’ll never be whole again. Adopting an infant or older child won’t do that.

      • What you seem to want is attention and consideration you have no right to expect. I’m done with your hijacking of this comment thread. I am not your therapist. Additional off-topic comments from you will not be approved.

  21. Heather

    GSM … you don’t have a loss or disability. Stop comparing your ideas to flesh and blood humans.

    Move on and change the problems with society’s issues as you see them.

  22. Heather

    If I did not have empathy there would not be a woman mothering my son today. You know nothing Greg.

  23. We won’t be hearing from Greg anymore unless he can contribute something substantial, which seems unlikely. In the interest of fairness, I won’t be approving any more comments to or about Greg, either. This ends this (and hopefully any future) episode of The Greg Show.

  24. Lesley Pearse

    In Australia, the adoption industry was created by the medical. A full court of judges handed down a recommendation, Judge Scholl did this, in the late 1950’s, saying that the sacred bond of mother and child has been recognised from before the time of Solomon, and adoption should only, ever, be a last resort.
    Despite this, the medical took it upon themselves to “solve the embarrassment of infertility” by abducting newborn babies from mostly white, unmarried girls, who were shamed into signing away their parental right to their baby.
    There was a network of Doctors, social workers (especially trained),Angencies, hospitals and lawyers who put in place this heinous crime against Mothers.

  25. Pingback: All those billions: the OOPS moment | lara

  26. Mei-Ling

    “A person who is coming to adoption from a place of infertility is NOT in a position of power over anyone.”

    My best guess is that Jane means that her inability to have biological children indicates she is undervalued as a person because she cannot perform the one thing that everyone expects women to do: be a mother. So in her eyes, she’s not privileged because her body can’t do the most “basic” thing in the world: give birth.

    OTOH, she is in a position where she can look into means for affordable adoption. That is a privilege, even if it doesn’t feel like it. I can only assume that – adoption aside – if she or other infertile women were told they had to remain childless, they would feel like pieces of trash – broken – as women are highly devalued and shat upon for not being able to do parenthood, even though it is through no fault of their own.

    • Ironically, we’re also shat upon for doing parenthood if we don’t get it *exactly right.* But yes, I’m sure that’s why she doesn’t think she’s privileged. I thought it was a poor choice of words.

    • Lesley Pearse

      WHY..?? Many women CHOOSE not to reproduce, married or not.
      Seems like women can have happy lives without children..!!

  27. lucrezaborgia

    Hah! I read another article on that site and then saw this linked one and was gonna forward it to you.

    I wish I could say that I couldn’t believe what I was reading but it’s amazing what PAPs and adopters say in their own spaces about adoption and their desperate need to get a womb wet baby instead of actually providing a home for a needy child.

    • Lesley pearse

      It’s amazing what Mothers of Loss and their children have to say in their own space too. But would Jane and her ilk go there to learn…??!!

  28. I think infertility brings with it a kind of madness in some women. The woman in Solomon’s temple had it. The willingness to hurt another woman, or take or hurt her child, just so you can have a child to call yours.

    Maybe the hormones go haywire, and crazy options start to make sense. Then there are all these women on TV and magazines, saying how great it is to give away your newborn. What’s a deluded infertile hormone crazed woman to think?

    Next thing you know, there’s a little stranger staring at you from the bassinet, and everyone is wondering just what the heck happened here.

  29. Barbarabaket

    I lost my first child to the adoption system 55yrs ago. My thoughts regarding the adopting(parents?) Have paralleled those outlined here.

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